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Modockin
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![[*]](./images/xpsilver/default_icon.gif) posted on 11-2-2009 at 05:22 PM |
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If they were on their laptops as they claim, most company networks can track who logs on when and for how long. That may be why they were suspended
immediately. the company knew better - they were not on their laptops.
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kdfwr911
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 06:03 PM |
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I'm just curious how much (if any) it would affect people's opinions if this had been the same pilot who successfully ditched his plane in the
Hudson River in New York after multiple bird strikes disabled all engines. He became a national hero because he was able to use his many years of
experience in the cockpit to remain calm and bring the plane down safely and save everyone onboard. He also just recently returned to the cockpit. If,
out of some strange twist of fate, this had been the same pilot, would everyone still agree with his firing? Because I know everyone at some point
after that happened thought to themselves something along the lines of "man if I'm ever in a plane when something like that happens I hope he (or
someone like him) is the pilot".
Guess I'm getting soft as I get older, but I feel like we're all human and capable of making a dumb mistake once in awhile.....including the pilot
from the Hudson River incident. If the crew involved in this has long clean records, I say give them a break. If their records are full of blunders
and mistakes or they have a history of screwing up, I say fire them. But it would be a shame if the pilot from the Hudson River incident had been
fired earlier in his career because of a prior error in judgement like this. The now famous ditching in the Hudson just may have had a very different
outcome.
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kdfwr911
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 06:05 PM |
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And when I say give them a break, I mean put them on some kind of probation or other form of restrictions for awhile until they earn the FAA and
airlines confidence back.
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RE3
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 06:16 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by kdfwr911
I'm just curious how much (if any) it would effect people's opinions if this had been the same pilot who successfully ditched his plane in the
Hudson River in New York after multiple bird strikes disabled all engines. |
Well...ya probably know it wouldn't change my mind. Sorry, but the guy with 24 years experience chose to do something other than his job, got caught
and has had to suffer the consequences. IMHO, he should know better because of his experience. What a shame to have to remove an experienced pilot
because he made a poor choice. As far as I'm concerned, we have to hold ourselves and others in positions of responsibility to high standards. It
seems as though we too often say oh well...he just made a mistake. It's okay. I learned early what it meant to be responsible and do what was
expected of me at whatever level. At the level of a pilot, entrusted with lives and a very expensive machine, the bar must be set high and maintained,
IMHO.
Okay...made my point! (Note to WaterWings......rut roh! You agreed with me! LOL!)
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Randy
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 07:00 PM |
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I tend to agree with 911. EVERYBODY.... makes mistakes. And I can't believe they cut the fuel supply THAT close with no room for a diversion, weather
etc. I think the punishment was too harsh for two guys with over 30000 hours of combined experience. If WW or I could sit here and say we haven't
made any mistakes in the cockpit, we would be lying. (don't know about him but I would be)  When I was a very inexperienced pilot
delivering an airplane, I landed on the wrong runway at the very busy Rochester NY airport. The tower was not very happy with me but he let it go.
That was over 24 years ago.
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Randy
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 07:05 PM |
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And something else... I wouldn't give it a second thought to fly with these two guys tomorrow. I bet it would be a VERY long time before they made
another mistake.
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WaterWings
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 08:06 PM |
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Well 911 made a supposition, let me make another one. What if the same guys that took off on the wrong runway in Lexington (Comair Flt 5191) and
crashed...but this time they had another 500' of runway and actually made the take off but still took off on the wrong runway. Would you want to fly
with those guys? The cause of that crash was largely the same problem that happened in this case...pilot inattention.
To answer your question 911, I would still fly with Captain Sully PLUS I would still fly with these two guys today. But I know and accept the risk,
others may not. But there has to be some responsibility. You can't just wave off inappropriate actions or disregard for human life. Whats to prevent
the next crew from thinking "no big deal, they didn't do anything to those guys, they won't bother us either."
{Did you know Captain Sully and his co-pilot had never flown together before that day? Excellent training and cockpit management.}
RE3 I agree with you more than you know. Your always wanting to give E a knuckle sammich and a whoopin. I think you should go ahead. Put the big hurt
on him. 
Randy, I have made plenty of mistakes too. H E double L, I've landed at the wrong airport, not just the wrong runway. (Pre GPS days this was easy to do.) Still 130 individuals were not sitting
behind me and depending upon me to get them down safely. Plus, as private pilots we do not hold ourselves out as professionals. We are not held to the
same set of high standards these guys are.
This is an interesting discussion. No right or wrong answers. When I fly to FL its a 4 hour non stop trip. If the weather is good and traffic is
light, it can be a very, very boring trip. Glad the autopilot/gps knows where we are at.
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squakmeister
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 08:07 PM |
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Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger (Hudson River ditching) would not have allowed himself or his co-pilot
to have become this contemptuous of Airline policies, the FAA Regulations, and so complacent
in cockpit management procedures and protocols to have allowed this to happen.
It is just not in this type of individual's character and demeanor to have allowed a total collapse
of cockpit discipline. Captain Sullenberger and thousands of other pilots would have inflicted
pain upon themselves to prevent boredom or fatigue from distracting them from their duties.
Example: The Northwest pilots turning down the volume control on their radios so they would
not be disturbed by Air Traffic Control communications. This in and of itself is an extraordinary
act to commit.
Captain Sullenberger would have put on his headphones and turned the volume up so that it
would have disturbed the heck out of himself.
There are certain things you just don't do in a cockpit. The Northwest pilots broke the faith and
they are getting off easy. Just my opinion.
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djcardinal
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 08:24 PM |
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As someone with 1.75 Million miles, there is no PASS for pilots. They are paid to do a job that is HIGHLY regulated. And there is no way, they had a
discussion that lasted that long. The facts are there's no proof, so they could say anything they wanted. If you look at the facts of this event, I
would be willing to wager a great amount of money that these two guys fell asleep, and are covering for each other. The laptop story is dumb, becuase
all laptops have clocks on them that are usually displayed at all times. These guys fell asleep, and they deserve to only fly again as passengers.
The responsibility for a pilot is awesome, and the consequences should be as well.
DJ
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Bluebird
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 08:59 PM |
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100% Agreement with DJ .
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Randy
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 09:32 PM |
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It sounds like you two guys are 100% perfect. 1.75 million miles doing
WHAT??? sittin in coach reading a newspaper? I agree with both sides to a certain extent. These guys just plain screwed up.... BIG TIME!!! Capt. Sully
wouldn't have done that? How ya figure? These two guys had as many hours or more WITHOUT a problem of any type. But I still agree with 911. Let them
sit and think about it for about a year without pay. But let me tell ya... The FAA has absolutely NO sense of humor in something like this.
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Bluebird
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 09:53 PM |
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Randy the FAA made the rules and I haven't seen any pilots union or retired pilot association, politicians, ACLU lawyer or even passengers on this
plane asking for the FAA to get a sense of humor & revise the harsh, zero tolerance rules......
(This would be an interesting 60 minutes TV show... interview ALL people on the plane & then conduct a secret yes/no vote of the passengers on the
firing of the pilots.)
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kdfwr911
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 10:21 PM |
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Well I guess I just believe that 2 pilots with the amount of time they have in the cockpit with no other blemishes on their records (as far as I know)
are probably worth salvaging. Like I said I think there should be some middle ground here that would salvage their long careers short of permanently
pulling their license. It would be different if they had other screw-ups on their records. I suspect if we fired every pilot who had ever made a
mistake or bad decision, most of us would be doing a lot more driving.
As far as Capt. Sully never doing something like this, maybe, maybe not. He is only a mortal human and less than perfect like the rest of us. And if
I'm ever on an plane which experiences an emergency, I'd much rather know I have these pilots experience in the cockpit handling it than someone
with half their experience.
Obviously Randy and I are the only ones who feel the punishment was a little too harsh under the circumstances so I won't make any more comments on
it.
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Randy
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 10:28 PM |
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Me neither..
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Bluebird
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 10:42 PM |
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Captain Bob/Squak:
This Sleeping Pilots topic is ideal for a LC.com vote survey!!!
Yes - Pilots should have been fired by FAA
N0- Pilots should have not been fired & other punishment should have been delivered by FAA.
This would give all the bashful lurkers a chance to give an opinion....
A few have given opinions and I would like to see what the LC.com members think!
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kdfwr911
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 11:01 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bluebird
Captain Bob/Squak:
This Sleeping Pilots topic is ideal for a LC.com vote survey!!!
Yes - Pilots should have been fired by FAA
N0- Pilots should have not been fired & other punishment should have been delivered by FAA.
This would give all the bashful lurkers a chance to give an opinion....
A few have given opinions and I would like to see what the LC.com members think! |
Okay, I wasn't going to comment any further, but now believe I should clarify my position.
I didn't mean to infer that the airline was too harsh in firing them. What I believe is too harsh is having their pilots license permanently revoked.
If the airline no longer has enough confidence in them to keep them in the air, then they should fire them. But their pilots license shouldn't be
permanently revoked by the FAA at the same time. Suspended for a year maybe. But I feel at some point they should be able to return to the
cockpit.....even if it's with another airline.
Now I'm done.
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djcardinal
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 11:07 PM |
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The Airline isn't alone, the FAA pulled their license as well correct.
And 1.75 millon miles may not mean anything, but it means I totally trust these guys, and I was let down a little by this. Especially considering I
travel basically only on Delta. And I do sit in first/business a lot, if it really even matters.
DJ
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kdfwr911
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 11:46 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by djcardinal
And I do sit in first/business a lot, if it really even matters.
DJ |
Just means you arrive at the scene of the crash a little quicker than those in coach. 
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squakmeister
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| posted on 11-3-2009 at 12:10 AM |
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Think of yourselves as a conscientious and well trained airline captain for a moment.
Your passengers are starting to board the aircraft, the cockpit door is open and
one of the passengers yells into the cockpit, "you guys stay awake in there".
How would this make you feel?
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djcardinal
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| posted on 11-3-2009 at 09:22 AM |
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Just like when anyone's boss says get it right, with the only difference being that these guys have a little control over one's life while that
plane is in the air. Flying is still the safest form of transportation in the world, but it is still with risk.
What about those pilots that were drunk a few years back? Were they ever reinstated? I remember thinking sub conciously to myself during that time,
maybe I should smell the breath of the Captain and FO. Not that I would, but thought crossed my mind. Cause if one person is doing it, out a
fraternity of tens of thousands, surely that one person isn't the only one.
DJ
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Pourme
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| posted on 11-3-2009 at 10:05 AM |
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Being freinds with many pilots I will tell you this. If they put them all on a lie detector and asked if they ever dozed off .............well then
the airlines would be grounded on Wednesday especially on international flights.
This is a case in which we are looking only at part of the problem. Pilots are being worked hard in this economy. Especially those who do regional
jets. The amount of take offs, landings and hours they put in on a shift is amazing. Our truck drivers work on more strict hours of service rules
than they do and they make much more money. I am hiring a pilot right now to drive a truck and he is tickled pink because he will make more money.
Not making excuses but it happens. You would also be shocked at some of the mechanical issues they deal with and keep under wraps. Many times what
they know is a big reason the airline is maybe a little soft on them.
I like all boats I see and some people I meet!
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